Americans Used Their Economic Freedom to Ruin Themselves


A good flim flam needs a good mountebank and a good mark. Two weeks ago, we pointed out that Wall Street was full of bright cads and dull sharks. Then, last week, we showed that conceited humbuggers run the central banks. Today, it is the politicians we come, not to bury, but to praise. They did their work well; they set up the marks.

The two great political figures of the last thirty years were Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Reagan. These titans from the two sides of the Atlantic led the way to a new idea of how the world should work. Thenceforth, capitalism was king. But it was a new kind of capitalism they had crowned, one with a strange, unnatural face. It was not the old free enterprise, king of the jungle, red in tooth and claw. This new capitalism was more like the owner of a pet shop, where all the animals were cute and cuddly – and didn’t eat the customers.

Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Reagan and their followers had seen how centrally planned economies worked; the Chinese and Russians showed what happened when bureaucrats ran an economy. The free market seemed like the best alternative. But the trouble was, these new ‘conservatives’ had no real respect for it. Instead of quaking before it in genuine fear and awe, like Moses before the burning bush, they began to believe that they could be its master. Then, they developed a whole host of fantasies about what this tamed beast could do for them.

Not only could the free market solve the problem of poverty, it could solve almost every other problem too. It was a social panacea. Just look at the wealthy countries, they said. Switzerland is clean and prosperous. By contrast, communist China is a dump. People are healthier and happier in capitalist countries, where they have better automobiles and lower birthrates. Science, supported by the free market, would find cures to diseases too…and even help people live longer. The logic was simple enough: free enterprise made people rich. And with their money, they could do wonders – cleaning up the factories, building hospitals and clinics, organizing public day care and Pilates classes…even getting rid of smoking!

Nothing was too absurd or contradictory for the True Believers. Gradually, they began to confuse the fruit with the tree…and then mistake the tree for a lamppost. Financial incentives were thought to be the key to everything. If an executive failed to maximize shareholder value, it was because his bonus was not large enough. If students showed poor test results, it was because teachers were paid by the job, not by the outcome. And if terrorists attacked a building in New York, it was because they lacked financial opportunities in Cairo. (Later, people were dumbfounded when doctors who had worked for the National Health Service tried to blow up cars in Glasgow and London.)

The ideas were slippery but they greased the skids. Soon, the marks were ready to go along with anything. Shareholders consented to hundreds of millions in bonuses and stock options for key executives. Investors signed up for hedge funds, willingly giving managers “2% and 20%” for putting quarters in the slot machine for them. Taxpayers allowed huge tax cuts – widely believed to be aiding the wealthy – because they looked forward to the day when they would be wealthy too. And almost everyone, everywhere eagerly went on a spending spree, in the belief that this new, kindler, gentler capitalism would add wealth faster than they could get rid of it. And if they overspent, hyper-capitalism would soon catch up.

In public finance, this delusion led to Dick Cheney’s famous quip: “Deficits don’t matter.” This, in turn, led to the greatest explosion of government red ink the planet had ever seen. During the first seven years of the George W. Bush administration, about $20 trillion was added to the U.S. ‘financing gap’ – more than under all America’s other presidents put together.

What was good for the top was good for the bottom. Private households, too, ran deficits of their own. Savings rates fell close to zero while U.S. household debt rose from less than $2 trillion in the first year of the Reagan administration to nearly $13 trillion in the 6th year of the present administration.

In Britain the story is about the same. Before the Thatcher revolution, household debt was about 65% of household income. By 1988, it had reached 100%. And by 2007, it was more than 150%.

When a consumer spends a dollar he earned, it is taken in as income to the businesses that receive it. But it offset by a cost too – a wage expense. But if the consumer spends a borrowed dollar, it comes to business like manna from heaven, with no balancing wage cost. Higher profits, greater leverage, more debt – it was all catnip to Wall Street. Financial assets were only 4.5 times GDP in 1980. Now they are 10 times as large. But that is nothing compared to the sugary confections of the credit industry. Credit default swaps, alone, are said to be worth $45 trillion.

The earnings of the financial sector equaled only 10% of total corporate earnings in 1980. By 2007, they made up 40% of the total, even though they still only employed 5% of the workforce.

But, “that game is now up,” says the Economist . The “new” capitalism was a fraud. It didn’t make people rich. It only allowed them to get rich – or poor – depending on what they did with it. Americans used their economic freedom to ruin themselves. But that’s just the way capitalism really works. You don’t get what you expect…or what you want; you get what you deserve.

Bill Bonner
The Daily Reckoning Australia

Bill Bonner

Bill Bonner

Best-selling investment author Bill Bonner is the founder and president of Agora Publishing, one of the world's most successful consumer newsletter companies. Owner of both Fleet Street Publications and MoneyWeek magazine in the UK, he is also author of the free daily e-mail The Daily Reckoning.
Bill Bonner

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  1. Hi

    Ahh, capitalism propa-ghandi Bill Bonner is at it again, I see. Let’s shoot a few thousand holes in his stuff, yet again. ALL capitalism is fraud, Bill!

    Capitalism… is actually a division of AmWay (American Way) called “The Free Marketeers” and its pyramid scheme symbol is easily seen on the back of the USA one dollar bill. It got the exclusive (legal tender) on the TYPE of survival coupons (money) allowed/accepted in all supply depots (stores)… and because of this “economy” of AmWay coupons, and because of the rat-racing over the coupons and the ownershipism empowerments, we now have a servitude-infested goes-around-comes-around (spirographical) mess. Economies cause rat-racing, and that causes felony pyramiding (pay up or lose your wellbeing) much like the mobs of Chicago prior to Elliot Ness. Servitude is legal in the USA, and almost all parents condone, promote, and “sharktank” their kids into the felony.. when they turn 18 years old. (Join the competer’s church, or starve!) I tell ya, felony pyramid schemes like capitalism, with all the survival supplies blockaded with THEIR rationing gates… sure makes it hard on us Christian socialists who resist joining. Its really quite oppressive to anyone wanting to stay with the cooperator’s church (be economy-less) (Christianity). Anyone who was ever in the USA military and has-seen its survival system, or in a USA public library, knows how wonderful socialist (economy-less/ownership-less) things work. Perfectly equal, moneyless, bill-less, ownerless, pyramiding-less, way of sharing life. While all the caps do their US/THEM tug-o-wars over control, money, and ownership, us American Christian socialist anti-caps are waiting patiently for a pyramid collapse or some moral laws and wiser experts. Or some wiser laws and moral experts. :) SOME of us learned about trying to erect pyramids-of-people when we were children in the farmyard. SOME of us could EASILY see… that when using servitude-infested pyramids… the upper 1/3 is “heads in the clouds” while the kids on the bottom ALWAYS GET HURT (weight of the world’s knees in backs)! SOME of us know better than to use economies and pyramids… for our survival system. (Any ex-military person should.) Some of us SEE the American herd’s runaway shopping/enjoyments addictions. The USA Dept of Justice is going to completely explode once the general public sees how much felony pyramiding has been allowed to happen… JUST to grow “economy” while forsaking all other “growth” criteria upon-which to measure things with. Sick, immoral, and illegal. The REAL Christians (non-pyramid scheme buy-ins)… will probably have to overthrow it, eventually. Law enforcement is asleep or cheerleading economy growth (cheering for tumors and cancers). Earth’s creator (its original owner(s) before caps tried to squat it all)… could show-up and kick-butt, too. You know… meek shall inherit and all that??? Might happen. Cease and desist order on capitalism pyramid scheme, immediately, please. Bill, when? What will it take?

    Larry “Wingnut” Wendlandt
    MaStars – Mothers Against Stuff That Ain’t Right
    Bessemer MI USA

  2. I love when clueless people who claim to care about “stuff that ain’t right” try to argue against the system that does a far better job of fixing the “stuff that ain’t right” than any tried-and-failed solutions they repeatedly keep proposing due to their lack of education. Just please, PLEASE, don’t let these people vote.

  3. Thats a rant to be proud of Wingnut, you’ll definitely convert millions of people to support your system of anti-capitalism with such eloquence.

    Hey Wingnut, I’ll give you a plain and useful definition of capitalism so you can learn a thing or two.

    Capitalism is the process of free trade between 2 consenting parties. The only assumption that underpins a functioning capitalist system are that it requires property rights to be well protected by the state.

    The individual is entitled to their property, and thus to do with it as they please.

  4. The masses all love capitalism while they think it is making them rich while they sit on their bums and tease people who save and be careful with their money- ha ha ha! they say you’re getting rich slowly, and we’ll all be milliomaires by next Tuesday. Hahaha! But as soon as the truth comes out, and the system turns against them, they all suddenly turn “anti capatalism” How handy. Meanwhile the capatilists in the world are:

    1) buying houses for them to rent so they can live in them and whinge that they hate rich people ( they whinge that they hate the capatalists even though the capatalist provides the roof over their head, without which they would have to go through the torture themselves that the capatilist went through of years of sacrifice to save a deposit)

    2)Builing businesses and factories for them to work in (while they work there they whinge about how much they hate the rich, who without them they wouldnt have a job)

    3)If you read the history books of the last great depression, you will see that it is the capatilists who band together during economic crisis and provide free food and help and shelter and clothing for the people during times of economic crisis. Who else would do it? The government are broke too so they wont be helping. While the people line up for food and help that the capatilists give them, they complain about them about how much they hate them. While the masses were spending like wildfire on credit, the capatilaits were being careful and saving their money and they DO HELP the needy the MOST during times of economic crisis. Who do you think sets up all those private charities that you read about?

    4)While the masses spend on credit and complain how much they hate rich people, where do you think the banks get the money to lend to them so that they can spend on credit? Thats right- they use the money that the capatilists have put in the bank, to give out to others to spend on credit. And while they are spending the capatilists hard earned and hard saved money, they whinge about how much they hate rich people. Did it ever occur to them that if capatilists didnt put money in the bank, then they wouldnt be able to spend money on their credit cards, and therefore they would have no credit either. Where do they think the bank gets the money to give to them to spend on credit? Where do they think the bank gets the money it hands it out to them like lollies to spend- do they think the bank dishes it out to them for free, out of the goodness of its heart? Heck no, they use the capatalists savings!

  5. John, Jono, and Christina… I think you had better let Buffalo’ing Bill Bonner defend his own capitalism cheerleading campaign, as none of you are doing his house of cards any good at all. Christina at least tried, even though her entire attempt had “Yay USA” underpinnings thruout… so I assume she’s American. Either folks see the extortion within capitalism, or they don’t. I’ve said my piece, and I’m not seeing anyone counter the highlighted points of extortion within it. I don’t see anything but scared little children running for the hayloft. Probably a good idea, cuz us socialists are going to put half the planet in federal prison… when she blows.

    Good luck with prison and afterlife answer-up, cap-condoners. GOD LOVES SERVITUDE SYSTEMS! (yikes!) The USA military knows better than to use pyramid survival/supply systems. Why can’t YOU?

    Pyramid Leveler (Equality cop) (nuns with guns)

  6. Christina: Nice rant there…and you do make some interesting points, however I felt a rather strange sense of ‘what the..?’ when reading it. I think your idea of ‘capitalism’ is just talking about rich people…which may or may not be rich due to capitalism itself, it also depends where you are.

    In regards to your points:
    1) If no homes were investment homes (only live-in homes), how much do you think the home would cost to buy outright? More or less than now? I doubt I will ever love a landlord as much as you suggest…

    2) I don’t think this is one of those services that is provided from the heart.

    3) I don’t know what to say to this point…um, what? The government supports charities up front, and as a tax write-off to companies. Centrelink isn’t run by some friendly rich guy. It will be interesting to see what happens if there is some form of depression though, perhaps you are correct (rich people don’t usually get rich by giving away money).

    4) This is partly right, but you need to understand that for every dollar that is deposited in the bank, the bank can lend out much more. Isn’t it credit that led to this problem anyway? That is not even necessarily consumer level credit, but also huge credit to businesses.

    Personally I think that there are two different types of people in the world…consumers and non-consumers.
    Consumers consume.
    Non-consumers hold/invest their money and make money from the consumers.

    If consumers stop consuming, economies fail.

    It is actually quite interesting looking at things from a non-consumers perspective, where the sole objective of business is to entice consumers to consume more. Thankfully over xmas this year, consumers went nuts on spending, so our economy is looking great :l

  7. Wingnut, its not a system of servitude. Its a system of just desserts, where the fools get what they deserve for borrowing and living beyond their means.

    For the life of me, I’m not sure why you insist on referring to extortion when you refer to people who get what they deserve and have to deal with reality.

    Capitalism is free exchange, and the word extortion has nothing to do with it. I’m much more frightened of other nasty words that actually have a specific meaning and do harm my freedom and steal from my property.. those words are “socialism”, “taxation”, “government”, “regulation” and “coercion”.

    The only way to minimise the bad stuff is to have a proper capitalist system.

    As easy as it is to criticise the outcomes in America, one thing’s for sure, it ain’t capitalism !

    As for the polar opposite of capitalism, I wonder what the track record of those economies are ?

    Something tells me the people living in North Korea, Cuba and China know a thing or two about living under a “system of servitude”.

  8. Jono, thanks for the reply. kKeep in mind that TRUE socialism/commune-ism is NOT an “economy”, it is a strife that REMOVES economy and ownershipism. No state ownership, no gov ownership, no private ownership, no team ownership, the whole concept of ownershipism… is abolished. There are ONLY custodians of the Earth materials repositories. We repository EVERYTHING and share it equally, JUST LIKE MILITARY RECREATIONAL SERVICES and their general supply system. EVERYONE shares the Learjet, everyone gets equal wellbeing… and NO economy. No ownership. NO TRADE, only supply requisitioning and giving. Everyone is on the same team… and takes care of each other, and is paid exactly the same. NOTHING! Rank is done ONLY by experience, tenure, and having a good name. Rank-respect is earned, and not in AmWay cerificates called dollars. We stop e-valuizing things in dollars, and look at an object or person’s OTHER values. ALL Earth materials NEVER had a pricetag or FOR SALE sign on it/them, so NEVER was any previous owner EVER asked about ownershipism and squating. (en-titles of ownership). SO, by our very own ownership laws, no Earth material, nor anything MADE FROM Earth materials… can be owned. Ownership is illegal… and so are land borders and fencings. We just won’t admit it. But never was the previous owner of Earth materials… consulted about entitles of ownership. As I said, ABOLISH economies, and don’t put some communist or socialist label on ANY economy. OUTLAW economies. Then, the rat-racing quits, and so does felony pyramiding… and the servitude resulting therefrom. Go see the example in my first post, about stacking people into pyramids and crushing folks on the bottom. All because of America’s addictions tto luxuries/being serviced/enjoyments. Sick!! Mental retardation-grade sick! We’ve GOT TO stop pyramiding… or it will kill us all.

    Best regards!

  9. Pete,

    Consumption doesn’t drive an economy, production does. See: Say’s Law. Throw out those Kaynesian textbooks.


    The military can afford to have the system you speak of because they don’t produce anything, they get all their consumption subsidized by the rest of the country (defense budget); it is not a closed economic system. In a closed system, for every unit of consumption you have to produce that unit, which means your people have to work. You either give them an incentive to work or you force them. Since you can’t give them an incentive in a true communist system, you have to force them: aka slavery. Capitalism is not servitude, communism is.

  10. Hi again! Here, lets put a little icing on the cake…

    (Google IMAGE search for “pyramid of capitalist”). Can we see the servitude?

    Do you think folks who want nothing to do with pyramid schemes… such as myself… get any “just dessert”, Jono? Do you think folks who can’t compete, and can only instead cooperate… by the laws of their intestinal fortitude and personal principles… are getting what they “deserve”? I say this… seeing you’re into the parental cock’n’bull terms/phrases like earning, deserving, pulling your weight, make a living, and supporting yourself, you know… capitalism railroading terms. Oh yeah, lets not forget “GET A JOB!”… or starve. NICE!!! Forced religion, clear as day. Goodbye cooperators church, hello competer’s church… and now begin rat-racing up the sides of a giant co-condoned pyramid scheme, elbowing for position, trying to make it to “set for life”… forsaking EVERYTHING along the way. NICE!!! A bridge-o-children across the ravine. Run hard and fast enough across it, stabbing everything in your way, and you might make it to “financial freedom”. YAY! AmWay power!! Maybe you won’t drop into the ravine like the kids on the bottom of the pyramid-o-people across Corpse Canyon. YIKES!

    Sad. Sigh. Bust it, America/World. Please.


  11. Hi John… and yes, you are absolutely right. The military’s fair and equal supply system… has supply and demand… just like all supply systems. Team Mankind lovers will monitor World Needs TV and volunteer (of course) to try to take care of ANY forseen shortages of both necessities and luxuries. Necessities first. Team Food, Team Roof, Team Health, all high-priorities and will be heavily covered by World Needs TV, and volunteers destined to work on those shortages, will travel in style, will be national heroes, and will be followed heavily by media cameras and mentor-seeking children. Workplaces/worksites won’t be quite like they are now. There’ll be live bands and farm-moms cooking sloppy joes all over hell, often live theater will go-on in the workplaces, lots of workers trying to relieve other workers after only an hour of labor, and we’ll all celebrate top-notch quality, all-volunteer GREAT products and GREAT voluntary servitude/services. It can work, when we’re all on the same team, and teach our children the correct things to seek and monitor. Hero worship for hard working mankind helpers… is everywhere, for there is no more advertising to waste video signals on. Advertising was a “trade” thing and it would be gone. Money wranglers and advertisers would likely be called into action for Team Food, and would be asked to live-amongst, and care-for, New America’s 1 million orchards and groves, as we would quit cropping animals and plants, and we would wait for the food to “fall” into fall nets (…like the season’s name tells us-to. No “picking”), and try not to truck it far. Ripened on the plant… wait for it to “give”. People travel to crops, not crops to people. We get more herd-like, and try to mimick the VERY SMART animals and insects, who are never seen with titles of ownership, money, or pricetags. I’ve never seen a deer carry a wallet. I think the deer is smarter than us.

    A foot of new snow here in Bessemer MI, today, kids. Who wants to “commune” on the shoveling responsibilities? :)


  12. “I’ve never seen a deer carry a wallet”

    No, instead they fight each other brutally for mates, risk starvation every winter, watch over their shoulder 24/7 for predators, never know if they’ll live to see tomorrow, susceptible to hundreds of diseases and dangers, etc…

    Yes, let’s live that life. Clearly better. Yes.

  13. Hmmm Wow,i have been reading all your comments/oppinions and i feel that what is missing is the understanding of HUMAN NATURE and all it`s variables, you as a group show some of those variables! When man can understand human nature then we can answer the When? ,How? and why?. The world we live in now is a result of the progress we have made based on human nature and as you can see we have a long way to go.All over the world different models are being used, which is the best? How doe`s a whole planet want to live? Will the nature of all humans allow us to agree?

    Diggin it!
    April 2, 2008
  14. Hi again, and hi Diggin’ it, welcome to the trench. :) First, I want to say to Bill Bonner, that I pick on him arbitrarily, and I mean him no distress. I think he probably writes about the goings-on inside the pyramid… quite well. His readers seem to like it, anyway. I’d like to see Bill step back from the system and see it as a whole thing, and write about THAT with me/us. All in all, Bill, don’t worry about some Jesus freak hassling you forever… I just see your name showing up on the same capitalism sites that I frequent… and I yank your topic off-track into “shut down the WHOLE SYSTEM” talk instead-of letting your thread motor down dems/pubs/govs arguing-inside… avenue. I don’t see any hope for capitalism, not unless caps start paying everyone exactly the same wages, bum or work-a-holic. And, that’s a commune. YAY!

    Diggin it… man, what a huge can of worms you’ve brought to the table! Yep, the questioning-of “what is human nature?” versus “what is learned behavior?” is a HUGE HUGE monster. The definition of “civilized” comes into it, and the parental policy change from share share share to fight fight fight when the kids turn 18… is involved. Feelings of insignificance lead to yearnings for empowerments. Ownership is an empowerment. Being-serviced is also such. A huge emBANKment of AmWay coupons feels empowering, and can send the slaves into action, building you a starbus, learjet, home, or purchasing a hooker, vacation, parties, plate of lobsters with servants. Being on “the juice” is a unique thing, gotten from having such a HUGE selection of bling in the AmWay redemption catalog (USA stores). Empowerments. Selfism. Is it learned? Is it human nature? Is it RIDICULOUSLY EASY to chalk something up to human nature, cuz that’s a hand-washing? No matter how gruesome the act, is it human nature? Murder? Pyramiding? Servitude? “GET A JOB!”? Is “get a job” actually a resentment… something akin-to “Hey, your parents had to work to support you and us, so you’ll be doing the same, mister!”-kind of slaving-for-America tradition? Parental empowerment over the kids? Gruesome stuff! HUGE subject there, Diggin it! Are you sure we have enough pixels in this blog to discuss that? I better re-ink my cursor for THIS one. :)

  15. Hi again, i brought up human nature to make a simple point, each of us will have an opinion of how life should be lived which is based on our nature and information supplied. For every single opinion there may be 100 others, so therefor there cannot be one answer to a debate other than, we agree to disagree! Think about that as you express your life choices, which part is your nature and why you accept the information supplied that is crafting your current opinion, then consider that when reading some one else`s. Maybe if the whole world could agree to disagree but still be sensitive to each others opinions we may have the begining of a new world that can design a structure for us all to live in while being content.

    Diggin it!
    April 2, 2008
  16. Wingnut,

    Capitalism is based on freedom. Your system is based on slavery. You’re the one that has to enslave people into working, either by brainwashing them during childhood or by extorting them some other way. But the idea that at some point people wouldn’t “have to” work is ridiculous because somebody has to produce all the things people consume, even if it’s just the basic essentials like food and shelter.

    Let me rephrase it another way: You said you would make it illegal to own private property. That’s the problem. See, you have the freedom right now to go live in the forest with a bunch of other people on whatever agreed-upon terms you want and leave the rest of the world alone. In your system, people wouldn’t have the freedom to live life how THEY want, such as owning certain things that they created and then trading them voluntarily. Instead, they’d be forced to live YOUR way, which is immoral.

  17. Go read the first post again John, as I showed you all the ways capitalism is forcing things. Is anyone being forced out of their homes, these days? I happen to want to live in a tourbus/large RV, but the caps have such things blocked with pyramid coupon pricetags… about a million worth with insurance. Think I would have to join the free marketeers to even have a CHANCE at getting that tour bus? Yep. And I don’t want to own it, just use it.

    Join, or get no opportunities, because all the opportunities are block by free marketeer coupon gates (pricetags). Like I said, AmWay got “the exclusive” in the supply depots, and if you want opportunity, you HAVE TO join and you HAVE TO use those coupons… competer’s coupons. That’s some REAL freedom there, John. Every child is born into a different socio-economic situation in the USA and many other places too, and not a single person is born equal. It depends upon where your parents were at… on the marching pyramid. Some have bloodlines, some have old money, and MOST are slavecorp. There is NOTHING in capitalism based upon freedom… not when the free marketeers block all the supplies and toys, and the only way to get use of them… is with THEIR coupons and ownershipism. ONLY pyramid coupons, with the pyramid scheme symbol on the back. That’s SEVERE discrimination. Capitalism is oozing at the seams with discrimination. SICK! WAY WAY SICK! And no, you won’t be living in any forest unless you OWN it. All land is squatted/owned, and it happened long before I was born. One needs an “entitlement of ownership” (a strictly capitalism/mercantiling thing), to do ANYTHING on Earth land… and not get arrested or shot by something with police-gun-backed ownership-empowerment. There’s no freedom or equality in ownership or exclusive consumption clubs. But if you can’t see it John, you just can’t see it. Sorry. I can’t explain it to you in any more detail… as its neon-sign obvious NOW.


  18. Hi again, and Diggin it, let me tell you about the evil evil evil “agree to disagree”. You’ll never see a police-grade investigator… “agree to disagree” with the criminal thing being investigated and scrutinized. “Agree to disagree” (heretofore ATD)… is perfectly namby-pamby, coddling and nuturing junky-satisfying, shruggers-festival-from-hell… way-of getting absolutely no decision-making done, and absolutely no changes made.

    In the world of weighing/choosing human and Earth survival systems, I and others WILL investigate, scrutinize, and fully fold, spindle, and mutilate things, until the TRUTH comes out. Things are weighed, and weighed, and discussed some more, and measured, and weighed some more, and a DECSION IS made, a result gotten, based upon WHICH THING IS BETTER FOR MANKIND/EARTH. “Better is the hard part, but there won’t be any ATD done there, either. When it comes to shoving people into the mud and under the overpasses with a survival system, there won’t be any coddle’n’nurture-junkied Stuart Smally kind of outcome. I am SO against ATD that I would personally sink it in a tar pit if it was a sinkable thing. ATD gets absolutely nothing done… its been seen to do that EVERY TIME. Nope, I’m a grind-it and weigh-it kind of person, and gruesomely despise ATD air-biscuits. Sorry, no personal offense, of course. ATD is just like that complacency prayer thing… God grant me the abilities to not give a crap about anything I don’t feel like giving a crap about, and the wisdom to live with severe blinders-on, etc etc. Just sick coddle-nurture goo-goo gah-gah girlie crap, like what we see on USA TV these days. Girlie girlie magazine shows… opinions… from the girls. Everything became “The View” fat-butt girlie-shopping and eating talk. YIKES! Nope, we need a bit more MANLY approach to this… as its like parenting the kids. There won’t be any ATD going-on when your child gets caught doing his/her first shoplifting. Its weighed, and decisions made, and nothing shrugful will be seen. I HATE ATD… as you can tell. Nope, full investigations to gruesome conclusions… beats shrugging-off weighings via ATD any day of the week, sorry. We’re the MaStars… and we chase scared little children right up into the haylofts… when they run from facing-up to music. ATD can only work when there isn’t a felony going-on. When there is, us Elliot Ness-type folk BUST IT… as such things are illegal and planet-harming. We don’t agree-to-disagree as far as MURDER being a good/bad thing, do we? Then don’t expect it within discussions of capitalism…. as its every bit a murdering machine. We now continue past the ATD attempt to roadblock further discussions and weighings. Such roadblocks will always be mowed down… as we don’t do coddle’n’nurture junkies in this discussion.

    Best regards

  19. Wingnut, not every piece of land on earth is owned. Go live in the rainforest in the middle of South America and believe me, no one will bother you for a looooong time. But you don’t like that. You want to take away things from others, otherwise it defeats the point, doesn’t it? You feel that you’re somehow entitled to that RV, but you don’t want to put in the work the build the RV. Well someone has to build it in order for you to live in it. They’re not going to build it out of the goodness of their hearts. Sure, they might build one or two that way, but not the millions that millions of people like you would like to “use” instead of own. That still requires building them, and repairing them, and building new ones eventually. It’s the same with everything. There is no free lunch, stop looking for one.

    Furthermore, you’re proposing abolishing ownership. Ownership of what?

    Houses? So someone can just walk in and out of your hosue as they please whenever they please and you have no say over it?

    Cars? So someone can just get into your parked car whenever they please and drive away?

    Food? So someone can take that snack you packed for lunch and just eat it whenever they please, leaving you hungry?

    Clothes? So someone can just walk by and tear your clothes off whenever they want, and there’s nothing you can do about it?

    Your own body? Can someone cut off your arms, rape you, etc…? After all, it’s their body as much as it is yours, since you don’t “own” it…

  20. That’s right, John. If society thinks I should be allowed to use an RV, they do… whether I’m an AmWay joiner or not. I should be allowed freedom of choice as far as joining or not, and still have a chance at having my dream come true.

    Now, there would be NO OWNERSHIP. Should I say it even LOUDER? NO OWNERSHIP!!! So it is NOT “your” house, it belongs to Team Earth (if you MUST have ownershipism or you’ll feel naked), or, in effect, it belongs to God. Its made of Earth material, so its owned by “the thing” who made Earth materials. Find out who that is, and maybe you can BUY some with AmWay coupons and pretend you own it. Its not YOUR food, its not YOUR clothes, but it IS your arms… so law enforcement gets involved if you push the sharing thing too far. Just like now, you cannot impinge on the rights of others. Laws ARE in affect, in socialism. In fact, rules-of-conduction laws and co-policing is very “common” in communes and commune-icating systems. Communes have a theme running thru them… and that is… “ALWAYS BE LOVING…. we’re all on the same team!”.

    But there is no “my” this and “my” that, in a commune. It all belongs to “team”, just like in the military and in Christian churches, under proper circumstances. Its just like the public library…. which is a perfect socialism. (a text/knowledge repository) A food repository wouldn’t be much different, and same with a tour bus repository. If my requisition form has proper justification and substantiation, I can check-out that tourbus for usage, as long as I follow proper care and maintenance rules per FLEET policies of “Team Conveyence” and “Team Roof”. I check it out from the repository, often after a bus-training period, just like I would a library book. I’d use a requisition form, just like military socialism. Unlike money, requisitiion forms are handed-out like leafs falling from trees… and are NEVER fought-over. The supply custodians determine whether or not my requisition form has proper mankind-helping justification or not. I’d be headed out to play music and teach Christian socialism, at least til I took a bullet from an angry cap. The bus would also have a serious musical animatronics show built-into it, too, and would teach kids good values, and kids could parade-behind this slow-moving, Sousa playing hoopla machine as I visited small towns in America, making people giggle and dance and think about pyramids and servitude-avoidance. Would that be enough justification to allow me to have/work-WITH that tourbus? Only the custodians of the bus repository… would be able to determine that. It actually depends upon whether we’ve got the world’s humans, plants, and animals, fed, housed, and healthy, yet… because ALWAYS… in a proper commune… world health comes first… before entertainment/luxuries. Maybe I’d have to teach socialism full time, instead of playing music or doing animatronics amongst. Maybe I could mix it within. Who knows? I’d have to present my case to the bus custodians and see what they (who represent the people of the world) say. If they were smart people and kept priorities in mind, I’d surely honor their decision.

  21. I’m done with this discussion. Your fantasy police-state fascism is frightning.

  22. Hey Wingnut, you should hook up with Melanie over on ‘The Problem With Artificially Low Interest Rates’. I think you two would get long just fine.

  23. Ah justin, we would finally find out for sure if two wrongs make a right.

  24. Hi gang. John, Justin, I didn’t invent socialism, communes, public libraries, and/or non-pyramid survival/supply systems like that used in the USA miltary! So, take your childlike tissy-fit of personal bashing, and cram it up your butt sideways. The thing that you apparently worship… is a federal crime. I guess you’ll need to cope and deal with that, won’t you? You don’t have a choice. So, pout, bash, have fun, but its not my fault if you worship a felony. Its not my fault that communes work better, and are more moral and efficient than the “yay America” pyramid system.

    It was good debating with you to the depths of your patience and knowledge, John. We’ll miss you. Can I count-on you honoring your claim of being done with the discussion, and to STAY GONE, now?

    Sorry if your feelings got hurt with my truth delivery, but I’m only the messenger, not the message. We’re in a construction zone here, so steel-toed shoes are needed… to protect little babytoes from being stepped-on.

    Notice to intelligent and stalwart posters: Please don’t be diswayed by these children… I’d like to continue the discussion ON SUBJECT. Just ignore the noise and weigh the subject as intelligent people do, and bring pertinent issues to the forefront. Please don’t go infantile with the infants.

    Best regards

  25. Public libraries are paid for with taxes. So are roads. The vast majority of the end users do almost nothing to maintain these infrastructures directly, but they do share their labor indirectly, through currency paid as taxes. Money is no joke: it’s a stand-in for labor, for trade goods, for pretty much anything. It’s not evil, either: do we want a barter system?

    Wingnut: how are communes more efficient than technological infrastructure? A combine harvesting tractor is much more efficient than a mule, for plowing a field. In turn, that means you can have a much bigger field, and fewer people have to do the backbreaking work of harvesting, planting, sowing, and so on. That sounds like a good thing, to me.

    To fuel an RV, unless it’s on solar powered batteries, you need to take full advantage of the brutal gun-boat diplomacy that richer nations use to secure markets in poorer nations. Of course, we all live with contradictions in our lives,

    Wingnut, you’re decrying immoral behavior, not an economic system. True law-of-the-jungle economics is not capitalism. As monopolists and corporatists have taught us, some people will do anything to get ahead, regardless of the cost.

    But taking away people’s ability to get one-up on each other isn’t realistic or helpful. Consider Thomas Jefferson’s notion of the gentleman farmer, a philosopher who owns land, grows his own food, and studies all the time. Such an undertaking, especially with 18th century technology, would be extremely difficult at best. How did Jefferson accomplish it? Slaves.

    Zac in VA
    April 4, 2008
  26. Hi Zac, welcome to the discussion, and thanks for your wise comments over on BestCyrano. I’m far from being a good writer… sorry. And, I don’t feel very well today, but I wanted to try to address your comments.

    Yes, you are correct about libraries and roads needing to be “paid for” when “economies” are used. In communes, there is no such thing as “paid for”. Those who do voluntary building of libraries, do it, for no wages, in a commune. There are no pricetags on ANYTHING, just repositories, and World Needs TV monitoring the supply levels in those repositories, and asking nicely for volunteers to help when supplies get low… including supplies used to build libraries and roads. Folks work for no wages, because they know, that to working on mankind-helping things, is to work on self… for we’re all on the same team. Jean Luc Picard told this to his new friend Lily, in somne Star Trek movie as well. He explained to her WHY the Enterpirse had no cost, as Lily asked about such. Its because they had formed Team Mankind, or bigger yet, Team Earth. We’re all on the same spaceship called Earth, so once the crew learns to get along and share supplies, we MIGHT be able to learn to pilot this thing. I think the Great Pyramids are actually for-some-reason-grounded flying machines, and once we get Earth vibes rolling correctly, they will float about 1 foot off the ground, and folks can ride them around the Earth… real slowly. That’s “heavy” stuff, and for another discussion, though.

    But yes, I’ll agree that folks don’t HAVE TO use capitalism in the greedy way which they ARE using it. But in the smae breath, it is CAPITALISTS that have cock’n’bulled the world with TWO totally-incorrect statements. First, that competition is healthy. Whelp, that’s been proved completely wrong by current health experts. The duress of competing and inequalities, is killing us all, but hopefully only the caps will go down the river when “the meek shall inherit” days arrive. I see that to happen around 2012, and I’m not alone.

    The second capitalist-yapping that is totally wrong… “There’s nothing wrong with making a good profit”. Yikes! Actually, there’s a list of about 10,000 things wrong with making a good profit… but mainly, profiting causes inflation.

    AND… economies promote rat-racing. So, yes, its not the fault of the economy… that folks rat-race over its AmWay coupons and ownership en-titlepapers… but it is PROMOTED. Anyone “moving up” in a company or society… is called “big shot” and “doing real well” by gossipy deluded parents, and in general, you WILL BE PETTED if you claw and gouge your way up the pyramid towards “set for life” and “finacial freedom”… which are, for most, dreaming the impossible dream. It often takes bloodlines and cronies… to get to “set for life”… and NOBODY is born equal in the USA or world. You’re born at the level your parents have rat-raced uip-to on the pyramid scheme of inequality and servitude (capitalism).

    Yes, Zac, I am indeed “decrying immoral behavior”… and am trying to get the system eliminated that promotes and condones such. Abolish economies, and the tug-o-wars go away. As loosely stated in a recent previous post, folks have no reason to tug-o-war over requisition forms. They only tug-o-war over money, because it can buy luxuries… and that’s because the luxuries are not repositoried and shared. The free marketeer coupons (money) are only fought-over, because such coupons allow people to get addicted to the things found in the AmWay redemption catalog (stores). Economies lead to shopping/enjoyment junkies. So outlaw economies, just like we did cocaine. Easy. Things that cause people to snort and get addicted and stupid therefrom, should be outlawed. They infringe on others’ rights.

    As far as being realistic, helpful, or practical, per a capitalist’s idea of the definitions of those terms… NOT GONNA HAPPEN. We will be getting WAY radical… to save this planet now. Take care, thanks for the comments, keep ’em coming. I learn stuff from every single comment, so thanks!

  27. “It only allowed them to get rich – or poor – depending on what they did with it. Americans used their economic freedom to ruin themselves.”

    That is exactly the reason. Capitalism is the natural way to go, easy borrowed money to be spent on junk has always been a doom to any society.

    Still, raising taxes is not the way to go. Cutting easy credits would be. Raising taxes force ‘ordinary’ people to borrow more to keep their living standard. But it doesn’t take long and many taxpayers go broke. Then, we have high taxes, no motivation to create businesses, everything ends up in a complete mess called ‘social welfare’

    The politicians will find good reasons to raise taxes anyway. They have to, otherwise a mediocre politician just cannot reign. See here:


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